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VIP For Molding & Casting! - JAWS - 02-01-2010
Ok when using resins & rubbers its very important to wear the correct PPE - Personal Protective Equipment. I recieved a nasty rash from resin getting on my skin & scared the crap outa me as I had never had any skin problems befroe. I didn't know what or why I got the ras until I went to the Dr's so just a friendly reminder to wear your gloves, long clothes, respirators & goggles.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - Recycle - 02-01-2010
AND, one other thing you may want to consider here.
I don't know if your physician informed you or not, but this type of reaction to things such as resin are what are known as 'cumulative effects'. This is the main reason you never "had a problem" before, but you will MOST CERTAINLY from now on. Proper protective equipment is ALWAYS appropriate, but even moreso now for you. Resin has been damaging you for quite some time now, but you did not realise it until these symptoms appeared. You have reached that "point" of your tolerance to it.
Here is a point which may frighten you just a bit more, and hopefully, enough that you wear protective equipment from now on.
The effects you have just witnessed of resin for you will never decrease now as your body has built up a 'accumulative effect' I mentioned earlier. This WILL NOT go away in time like many other ailments. This stays with you and ONLY gets worse the more you expose yourself to resins and similar types of chemicals. If you DON'T take appropriate action in the future when you are using these things, the 'effect' will only increase for you and can even get to a point you can no longer be exposed to it EVEN with proper PPE. That's just a fact you need to consider.
Ask around on other forums.
There are SEVERAL other of our brother modelers who have progressed to the point they can no longer be around some of the things we use all the time. There are even a couple guys we know that stand a VERY real chance of death from contact because they have allowed themselves to progress to the point of no return with this stuff. Some didn't even know they were doing it until it was too late.
Don't shoot the messenger here.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - JAWS - 02-01-2010
Eeeeks! Thats really F^%$t. I haven't even been around resin long. Like not even 6 months. Admittedly I had been careless in the past & like my episode drilling resin in the garage without a mask had to learn the hard way. But I do learn & would hate to have to give this up just as I am getting started...
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - Recycle - 02-02-2010
No matter how long, you have had a reaction already and that is not a good sign as to your tolerance level for the chemical make-up of resin products.
Drilling isn't bad, with normal, low speed (relatively low) drilling equipment. What you want to be careful of is any time you are creating dust type particles. Even most hand sanding isn't bad except for the fact that the sanded material doesn't just stay where it falls. Next thing you know, you've inadvertantly brought it up to scratch your nose, or your lip started itching and then, there's the problem. You have more to worry about while you're cleaning up the dust than you did while you were sanding because you end up making it airborne.
Where caution really needs to be taken while working cured resin is any time you start working it with equipment that makes it airborne, such as a grinder or mechanical type sander. An example would be a 'dremel' type tool or belt sander and things like that.
Your particular problem, however, doesn't have as much to do with working cured resin or the dust it creates. This type of activity will always need to be respected, of course, but your problem stems more from the chemical compounds the resin is composed of.
Jase, make damn sure you protect yourself while you are mixing and pouring (and shaking and stirring and measuring....etc; ) uncured resin. You are apparently more reactive to the chemicals of these products than many others would be at this early stage, or I should say, your symptoms showed up earlier than most. This is probably a good thing! Many have the same ill effects, they just don't know it because they never got any outward signs as you just did. Most continue until a worse symptom appears, so you got a "warning" early, that's all.
As you say, it does suck that you seem to not 'get on well' with resin and you've just started working with it. I would say that it's probably not a bad thing that you realise at this very early stage what many don't figure out till it's too late. Take the proper precations, always. Read and understand labels and even dig a little deeper. Some of this may cause you problems just from the fumes they create when you open the containers!
Read thoroughly. Check concerns listed. Just remember how many things are in this world. If they say that something "May be hazardous", that probably means that it is very harmful! They just weren't 'required' to say that.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - erospawn - 02-02-2010
Boy, Im glad I've been wearing latex gloves while handling the stuff! Although, I think after reading this Im going to be taking more precautions than that! Yikes!
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - 427 Cobra - 02-02-2010
OK. Coming from a former med student,I can say that this is something that may not be a cumulative effect,but a skin sensitivity. Some people don't know it right away,but this is more widespread than any of us realise until you are called upon to treat it. Everyone in my family has soft,sensitive skin. There's nothing you can do about it,except to wear gloves. As long as this is in liquid form,you should be alright where breathing is concerned. Most of this may also be caused by repeated exposure to the dry resin powder which can dry out your skin,especially since the dry heat,or dry air of winter does this to a lot of people.
Antibacterial soaps,and bodywashes can make your skin more dry than normal. It should be summer,almost fall in the land down under,so the heat,or dry air may not be a contributing factor. If you do get the liquid on your hands,the acids in the urethane may also contribute to the dry rash on your skin. This is because it dries the oil out in your skin. Tile grout,dry mortor,and concrete mix will do the same thing. The lye in it dries out the oil in your skin as well. If you've changed shampoo,deodorant,laundry soap,dish soap,dryer sheets(static cling remover),or conditioners - these may also contribute to certain types of chemical reactions in the dermis (top skin layer). Just wear a respirator with the dry sanding,or resin dust,and wear nitrile gloves when working with liquid,or dry resin dust.
I don't have the above reactions with resins of any kind,but only with washing my hands with antibacterial soap excessively during the winter. Otherwise,I don't have any allergies,or skin reactions of this kind when working with chemicals. I usually wear gloves anyway. Latex gloves suck,and they don't breathe the way nitrile does,as it has rubber in it,and not LATEX which can,and does cause skin irritations in those who are allergic to latex.
Cumulative effects usually only happen with repeated DAILY exposure to solvents,and alkaline chemicals. This doesn't mean the resin dust won't aggravate your skin,but it's highly unlikely it will. It may contribute to the condition you're suffering,but something else may have caused a reaction in the skin to create a rash. Most chemical reactions may cause the skin to bleed,or have patchy open sores. This is usually from liquid state chemicals,alkalies,or weak acids like chlorine bleach,or isopropyl alcohol that come into contact with open pored skin. The viscosity won't have an effect,as this is still absorbable through the skin. What this means is that if you've been exposed to something else it may have started this irritation,and the resin may have made it worse by compounding the situation.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - JAWS - 02-02-2010
Thanks Cris & Recycle. In all honesty I think this one just came down to me being a little inexperienced, hot & humid & just not doing the right thing. The rash only came up in a couple of spots I know I got Part B on & is gone now with some cream from the Dr. I thank recycle for his knowlege as I know he has extensive knowlege with these chemicals & knows many of the high end builders & kit makers we all love & respect. I thank you Cris for your knowlege & input as both give a good clear reminder of the fact we all need to be careful & are working with dangerous goods at the end of the day. I will be wearing long sleaves & pants with gloves & even eye wear in the future. I will also now always work with the garage door open for good ventilation. unfortunately for me I always learn the hard way but I do learn. Thanks guys.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - Recycle - 02-03-2010
You're Welcome! What Cobra said is absolutely spot on and is more likely your scenario.
You have, however, had an early warning that your system is intolerant and taking heed ahead of time is certainly always better. An "ounce of prevention" as they say.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - JAWS - 02-03-2010
Thanks I'd just hate to stop doing this as Im getting better at it. It really is alot of fun. If I can just manage to get myself a kit master to have a go at producing I'll be stoked!
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - Scott Graham - 02-07-2010
Hu guys. This isn't casting related, but I've got to a point with cyanoacrylate glues where they make me asthmatic an hour or two after using them. I'm assuming it's an accumulated allergic reaction. I've read a bit about it on forums on the net and noticed it happens to a lot of people eventually. I've been a little afraid of building because I don't want to be gasping for breath if I use super glues.
One theory, by a person who worked with production of and sold super glues, is that if you use the medical grade glues that are the most pure, then you won't have the problems. I'm assuming that he meant won't have problems after you acquired a sensitivity to it.
So I've got some loctite 414 here I'll be breaking out soon and begin building again. I hope it works out. I don't want to have to use epoxy.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - 427 Cobra - 02-07-2010
(02-07-2010, 03:39 AM)Scott Graham Wrote: Hu guys. This isn't casting related, but I've got to a point with cyanoacrylate glues where they make me asthmatic an hour or two after using them. I'm assuming it's an accumulated allergic reaction. I've read a bit about it on forums on the net and noticed it happens to a lot of people eventually. I've been a little afraid of building because I don't want to be gasping for breath if I use super glues.
One theory, by a person who worked with production of and sold super glues, is that if you use the medical grade glues that are the most pure, then you won't have the problems. I'm assuming that he meant won't have problems after you acquired a sensitivity to it.
So I've got some loctite 414 here I'll be breaking out soon and begin building again. I hope it works out. I don't want to have to use epoxy.
Obviously,your source doesn't know much about the product they worked with! There is no such thing as "medical grade superglue".
Superglue was the trademarked name by the Duro coporation in 1968 to help our boys out in the field to seal flesh wounds when stitches weren't practical. The exact same formulation of this is used today. There are however,different strengths of CA glues that have slightly different attributes from each other. The differences in formulation are - strength,colour (for furniture repair,and other colour matching),and some for industrial applications where hypoallergenic conditions are required.
We've come a long way in the formulation of the original Superglue brand CA adhesives since it was first introduced. It's still the same formulation,it's just that there are different strengths. There's no way of reformulating this to be odor free,or have it the same product strength. Either it IS,or it isn't superglue CA formulation.
As far as your problem is concerned -
There are two schools of thought on that: One is to use low odor superglue. Yes they DO make this! This is the Bob Smith industries brand that everyone I know uses,but this comes in a white labeled bottle.
The second school of thought is,use a respirator,or use a different type of glue.
There are many types superglue strengths that manufacturers use to achieve multilple types of bonds. Most people think that all superglue copies are the same. Loctite is the original maker of superglue. This is made by the DURO corporation. This was the one we all grew up with. Then the Japs copied this (as they do everything),and created Krazyglue. Then not long after,all the clones came out of the woodwork with them. But - not all superglue makers use the same formulation,or strength! This is why some may take longer to form a bond,while others cure almost instantly.
There are some that are so powerful that they make your nose burn,and eyes water if you get a wiff. This is why I use the thicker gap filling Bob Smith industries brand insta-cure + in the magenta bottle with the purple cap. Even though this isn't superglue brand,it IS strong without the powerful odor,so I can use for hours and never get a headache,having my lungs hurt,or the feeling of lightheadedness. I always keep it capped,even when using it. I just add enough to the part to join it,then cap it off. This keeps it from drying out,or letting excess fumes escape. I use a little on a scrap piece of plastic,and swirl another scrap piece of styrene into it,then I apply to the part. This will last a few minutes until I use it all up.
There are ways to get around the stink,but my problem with it,is that it's too thick at times because it takes a little longer to set,but the bond's the same strength as regular superglue. It being thicker means,that it has more acrylic in it. This is the acrylate mentioned on the bottle. This is the binder,and the cyanide in it is the activator that causes the odor,and the burning when it gets in your nose. Of course,this has acetone,and other solvents in it,but acetone is the number one component to making your eyes,and nose water as well,as burn just as much as the cyanide in it. This only compounds the problem. It's easy to keep this smell from burning you sinuses,but your lungs need a different type of protection. If you're using this for hours on end like I do,it's best to limit building to a couple days a week. I usually spend three to five hours a day working,but less than a third of that is gluing time.
I'm a scratch builder,so most of my time is spent drawing,redrawing,and cutting materials to build with. I know that this isn't what a lot of builders do,as they're building,not cutting raw styrene. Gluing only takes a few seconds,but cutting takes forever,so my time may vary from yours. An organic vapor charcoal filter respirator is this only thing I can recommend for you,if you're gluing all the time.
I use the Bob Smith industries brand,as this doesn't act like regular superglue copies do,which is why I use it. This is thick,so the ordor isn't as strong,but the bond is as strong as any superglue product I've ever used. It doesn't have the powerful odor that most CA glues have,which is a plus. This doesn't mean go sniffing it to see if it gives it you a headache,or if it makes your lungs hurt,or your nose burn,but it will make it sting like any other,just not as much.
Other than any of this,the only thing I can recommed is, use a polyurethane glue like GORILLA brand,or something similar. This glues things very strongly,but it oozes,and it needs to be removed right away! It also expands,so the only other thing I can think of is to use regular model glue,or epoxy.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - Scott Graham - 02-08-2010
Thanks very much for all the info and help. I did suspect that the guy giving the advice on the other forum was a loctite salesman. So 'medical grade' (which was a paraphrase by me) would be the original, which is loctite.
I've tried low odor glue, but it really didn't seem to bond very well, so that's why I'm desperately looking for an alternative.
If Bob Smith brand is bsiadhesives.com, then that's what I usually use. That's the only ID I see on the bottle. The main ID on the bottle is the local hobby shop - which I've noticed is the usual tag with this brand of glues. I usually use gap filling superglue with the purple label when I can. Mostly because I hate super glues that run like water.
I've always been concerned about the fumes given off especially when I use kicker to set up the glue quicker. That cyanide gas given off can't be good for you
I'll keep experimenting. If I need to, then I'll break out the NBC suit.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - erospawn - 02-09-2010
So you're saying it smells a little like roasted almonds in your hobby room? That's supposedly the smell given off by Cyanide gas...
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - JAWS - 02-09-2010
This is the thing boys. Im pretty sure all the warnings say to use these products in 'well ventilated enviroments'. We all need to check ourselves before we wrek ourselves. I am very happy to say my rash was gone in a couple of days. Its been raining & kool so no casting yet. Have alot of work to do for a 'large' build starting soon so fingers crossed.
RE: VIP For Molding & Casting! - 427 Cobra - 02-09-2010
(02-08-2010, 11:33 PM)Scott Graham Wrote: Thanks very much for all the info and help. I did suspect that the guy giving the advice on the other forum was a loctite salesman. So 'medical grade' (which was a paraphrase by me) would be the original, which is loctite.That's the one. It used to say Bob Smith industries on the backide of the label where the UPC code is. Now it just says "MADE IN THE U.S.A." on the top row,and "distributed by BSI Atascadero C.A." The URL for this is now: http://www.bsi-inc.com I only use the stuff in the purple bottle because it doesn't run,and I don't use accelerator,as this gives off noxious fumes as well.
I've tried low odor glue, but it really didn't seem to bond very well, so that's why I'm desperately looking for an alternative.
If Bob Smith brand is bsiadhesives.com, then that's what I usually use. That's the only ID I see on the bottle. The main ID on the bottle is the local hobby shop - which I've noticed is the usual tag with this brand of glues. I usually use gap filling superglue with the purple label when I can. Mostly because I hate super glues that run like water.
I've always been concerned about the fumes given off especially when I use kicker to set up the glue quicker. That cyanide gas given off can't be good for you
I'll keep experimenting. If I need to, then I'll break out the NBC suit.
The smell of bitter almonds is what cyanosis,or the activation of cyanide smells like. This is its' odor when released from a dead body,or a bottle containing cyanide. It's not good to breathe the odor,or fumes given off for an extended period of time. Get fresh air every ten to twenty minutes when exposed to this. Give yourself ten to fifteen minutes to clear the oxygen in your bloodstream. This should get most of the stink,and chemical fumes out of your workspace. The fumes from cyanide aren't harmless,but they aren't as toxic as when closed up,then released with all the components of superglue,as it's ten times more concentrated than regular cyanide by itself. The acetone makes it much more chemically potent.