1/24 Hero X Wing Build with Maxi Brute Fuselage

[erospawn]

(12-23-2009, 02:54 AM)427 Cobra Wrote: Unfortunately,all the information,photos,and posts were all deleted when this forum changed hands. No Mike didn't document this on the old site. He decided that "he didn't want anything to do with modeling anymore" he sold this site to Jason,and none of the photos could transfer from the old server to the new one.

Actually, they could be... he just didn't know what he was doing.. and wouldn't let me in to get the data...

[PB BB1]

Any data/names that could be retrieved would be very useful to me... even if its just the name of one guy who is willing to talk about the project.

Additonally, everything WILL be documented and shared here.

[PB BB1]

Have a few emails out, and one to Mr Estes himself. I'll post here if anything turns up.

Meanwhile...

Obsess much? I know I do... was worrying about my Saturn V parts. First picked up a vintage release, following Beaz's way of casting what I needed to leave the kit intact. Then I found another bargain and figured I might as well use the kit-parts and save myself the trouble. Might as well bother making some corrections, though.

Left to right; untrimmed bell, corrected bell, first release bell


BUT there is the dreaded mold damage. Having read about these quirks for a number of years, along with claims that subsequent releases were not as crisp...


...well, I gotta say I'm not going to obsess over this one. The plastic of the later release is less opaque, more of a milky white compared to the old kit, but certainly not suffering any detail loss.

Wondering what my avatar is all about? Have a look at this all kit-part droid strip master pattern that is only one part short of completion. At least I've got the one to cast.


Lastly, the nose cone pattern before final cleanup.

[JAWS]

Nice work Paul. The nose looks sharp! This is a great build. Hope you get some satisfying answers to your emails about the MB.

[427 Cobra]

I see that you still have some pitting,and joint lines in that nosecone. DON'T FIX IT!!! Leave those there. The originals were very rough to say the least. If you make it too perfect,it won't phase anyone. Not only that,but it'll lack that roughed up quality that the original ILM models have. Even the four footer had a few joint lines where the engine intakes were glued in layers. There are a few places where you can see some lines where they put parts together,but aren't uber-perfect.

The massproduced versions are too perfect,and lack that ILM homemade feel. The only thing that'll be ILM perfect is the path you've chosen to take with this Maxi-Brute kit. This will be the closest that anyone here will get to the original seventies models. Now I see why so many of these guys on the forums want to preserve the lineage of these film icons. When I first signed on for this project,I wondered what all the fuss,and noise was about. "It's just a job to me",was my initial impression of all this research,and hub-bub,but this is a passion to the other modelers on these forums. Now I appreciate your vision to recreate these models,and I'm honored to be a part of these forums with such dedicated,and talented people.

[PB BB1]

Thank you Jason. No responses yet, and I doubt I'll hear from any of those guys... but we'll see. I'm even using facebook.

Cobra, this is the kind of feedback I need. I was just explaining to a friend of mine that making this fuselage 'perfect' geometrically would be going too far.
However, I do wish to correct some things... not all, but some. Anything that looks flat out sloppy to me I'll fix, especially because I'm sure those guys back then would have given more time. Take my droid strip for example; the messerschmitt part at the center is actually 2 messerchmitt parts. The single part used on the original does not sit flat (small gap under the back curved edge), but there is a flat part in the kit that corrects this... and I used it. I am very fussy about fitment... I actually sanded channels in that dark green plastic so I wouldn't have to worry about any gaps from the raised borders of the deck. I won't even have to seal this before it goes in rubber. No undercuts, no gaps... just styrene bonded with tenax.

I am flattered you think this will be the closest we'll get. It is still too fat when compared to the Red 3 reference. BUT, this is just one bird and I can't help think that Red 2 (the first X wing built) is closer in shape to the original nose part coming out of the mold. I will be filling the line that was the seam as this would not have been on the original nose, but the advice will be heeded. The MB nose cone features a separate injection molded styrene part that goes on the bottom. There may be some quirks here and there, and I'm not going to back the opening of the nose until the fuselage top is done. Looking for some play, but a solid surface to surface fit.

Please guys, more feedback. What do you think of the shape of the nose? Keep in mind the layered styrene you see in the notch on the Hero models was an individual add-on, and the nose would be cut through for access to the mounting point. This is why there is no panel line on the pyros extind top to bottom. We also know styrene was used to extend the angled profile of the nose on the bottom half of the fuselage. Please note red 3 does not have this addition.

[427 Cobra]

OK,Paul. I thought it was you that posted the asymmetry of the original ILM models. It was Colin Droidmilk of the RPF. Either way,this is what I think you mean when you say that all the nosecones are not moulded in. You ARE CORRECT. Each of these was cut individually,and not moulded on the hero models,or even the pyro models for that matter! Here's Red 4 - the one that was stolen from the ILM shop before filming ever began.The Red 3 of Empire was actually made for that film. It has hollow wings. Only Red 1,2,5,and 6 had hollow wings in the first Star Wars movie. All others were made from polyester resin. Look very carefully at the nosecone,and the indent made from cutting into it. It's not perfectly centered in the middle. This is what I meant when I told you about the handmade quality that these all have.

After making the first four models,it was decided to cast the rest - Red 3,4,and 12 because of time constraints. There are photos of Red 3, in pieces in a display touring the world,and I have a photo of the Red 4 (that was actually filmed) in pieces after being framed for posterity. We know that these did NOT survive the first movie. This is why there are no photos of Red 1,3.4,6,or even 12 after the first movie in the archives,but everyone on the RPF wants this to not be true - none more than me! Red 12 was truly never filmed and shown in the movie,but it isn't known that this was blown up,or not. Sadly,this was destroyed during filming. It's demise wasn't filmed,even though there is film of this model,but since wing numbers 7 through 11 didn't exist,it wouldn't make sense to show this being blown up,with the aforementioned not even seeing a second of time in the final version of the movie.


It wasn't filmed in a firey explosion,but it was used to test the pyrotechnics before all the others were blown up. There is a film gel out there that has surfaced of the Red 12 model,but this never made it into the movie. Since there was little time,and money for twelve actual models,one of our resident smartasses decided to make the last of the rogue group numbers anyway! This is why there were never more than the original six filmed,as these were the core characters. There wasn't time,or money to make,and film all the models in the group,which is why only the first six are shown in the original Star Wars movie.

[PB BB1]

I see what you are saying and while fear the notch in my cone may appear a little too crisp, it is ever so slightly off-centered... a carry over from the MB. I will still be reworking the nose. While I believe the notch is now the correct width it looks too small because I think the MB cone is still a little too fat.

However, that photograph is of a Pyro fuselage... and those DID have their cones molded in place with the rest of the fuselage. Unless, the recently auctioned pyro master pattern does not represent this specific model. Though, I think I am detecting the seam on the nose itself down the center. This split could cause more asymmetry than what was found on the original nose as it is one more step removed from the original nose part.

Yikes, I thought I was farther along.

[JAWS]

That Pyro Master I believe went to good hands. We may see something we've all been cryin out for after all...

[427 Cobra]

(01-11-2010, 08:27 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: I see what you are saying and while fear the notch in my cone may appear a little too crisp, it is ever so slightly off-centered... a carry over from the MB. I will still be reworking the nose. While I believe the notch is now the correct width it looks too small because I think the MB cone is still a little too fat.

However, that photograph is of a Pyro fuselage... and those DID have their cones molded in place with the rest of the fuselage. Unless, the recently auctioned pyro master pattern does not represent this specific model. Though, I think I am detecting the seam on the nose itself down the center. This split could cause more asymmetry than what was found on the original nose as it is one more step removed from the original nose part.

Yikes, I thought I was farther along.

Remember,this was a hero fuselage long before it was a pyro fuselage. It was also the first one made since the failed buck incident. This had a styrene bottom,as it was easier to vaccumform than resin was. The top was made out of epoxy reinforced with aluminum powder shavings. These pyro models were all made out of polyurethane,as were the hero versions. This master was the only one made with a styrene bottom,as when the two were glued together - the polyurethane,and styrene didn't expand at the same rate causing the styrene,which is softer to warp.

The original buck was made from wood,then a urethane mould was made from that. There were two initial moulds made,until a pyro version X-wing didn't explode satisfactorily. It was then decided to make a third, fourth,and fourth half shell mould,so that they could produce these faster. This was only done after another test was conducted to see whether this design would produce a more pleasing effect. One of the first moulds "blew up" because one of the casters didn't add enough hardener to the polyurethane resin,and silicone mould release,so that when the fuselage came out,it stuck in the mould in pieces,and caused it to distort,and warped it completely. This was the bottom fuselage mould. This is when they decided to use a vacuum formed styrene bottom as an alternative,but it too was scrapped in favour of using the resin instead.

This polyurethane was used as it was new,and it was surprisingly cheap. This is what car manufactuers at the time used for the insulation,and seat cusions in their vehicles. This was hardened to be more durable. It was soft enough to cast when liquid,but hard enough to withstand casting,and handling once solidified. It wasn't actually foam,but solidifed with the hardener. The only problem was that being so new that none of the ILM modelers were very knoweledgable about it,so it was trial,and error until the right formulation was found,and production of these could proceed.

The urethane at the time would only allow for ten complete moulds,which I believe is another reason why there were only six models made for filming,even though there were twelve official models made. Red 12,which never made it to filiming,and Red 4 that was stolen make eight,and the one pyro model master,and the failed pyro that was used make ten,and the successful pyro make eleven. The twelfth one was the Red 3 made for The Empire strilkes back,which has hollow wings. The Star Wars Red 3 had solid resin wings originally.

Initially,there were only supposed to be two moulds for pyro models,and one for hero models. Since only two actual models were for saving,Red 2,and Red 5, there was no reason to make another buck for the line. Although most of these had hollow wings,Red 3,Red 4,and Red 12 were solid. The nosecones for all of the hero models were separated,as they were to be mounted for all around views,as the pyro models were to be seen only from the front,and the side. This line wasn't intended to been seen,which is why it was omitted from the pyro models. It wasn't known at the time that this separation line would be visible in the movie,so it remains on the hero models to this day. Otherwise,there would've been an alterate nosecone used for filming these from the front,as opposed to the ones that were used at the time. These nosecones aren't supposed to have separation lines from the original McQuarrie sketches,and final drafts.

The first model to be built was actually Red leader. The second one was Red 5,even though Red 5 was moulded first from the original mould before it was destroyed. This is also why the proton torpedo tubes are farther forward on Red 5 than on other models. The other two to be finished were Red 2,and Red 6 respectively. The Phantom engines on Red 2 are different because,it was sent overseas to be approved,and filmed. It's features were the first inception of the phantom engine,and it was by accident that this one would have different features that the other models. Each of these models weren't finished in the order that they were built,but rather when they were painted. Meaning,that when one was painted,it wasn't decided what wing number each model would be,but it was all incidental,and not intentional that each of these would have the features that they do today.

[PB BB1]

Thanks Cobra, but I'd like to follow up with you on a few specifics I'm hazy on. I need help as I am getting close to making molds.

Right, the Pyro fuselage master pattern is made from the Hero parts, BUT the nosecone was attached to that master. I am only using hero reference to derive the most accurate shape of the cone. Also, Red 3 has a styrene bottom... further evidence the pyro master was made from the same parts utilized for the earlier Hero versions. This is good news for me as the reference I have is consistent... Hero models all have... styrene bottoms... always that grey color on top... so I can count on parts I am seeing on each bird representing a part that came from one source. But I am having a hard time making comparisons, specifically with panel lines. I guess I'm wondering what poor guy spent his time etching them into the tops and bottoms of all these parts. At least enough bucks for confirmed moco miniatures. As far as I can tell they are all the same, with the exception of Blue Leader/Red 2, but like you said we know this bird was separated from the rest for full-size reference and deviates from the standard design. So I guess what I want to see is variation in panel lines on the standard Heroes. If there is no variation then I will etch the panel lines into my masters. If this is not the case I guess I'll have to consider deviating from replicas of original parts in favor of practicality.

Is there any value to casting in the same type of polyurethane used back then? At the very least I would like to try to match the color. Has it been confirmed that this was the material used, and is it certain the hero fuselages is aluminum impregnated epoxy? Given their original learning curve I would like to think I could tackle these processes at home... but the aluminum makes this sort of a wild card.

A photo update is in the works. Thanks for the read.

[JAWS]

Any updates Paul. You seem to have dropped off the radar! Very keen to see what youve been up to?

[427 Cobra]

(01-22-2010, 02:56 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Thanks Cobra, but I'd like to follow up with you on a few specifics I'm hazy on. I need help as I am getting close to making molds.

Right, the Pyro fuselage master pattern is made from the Hero parts, BUT the nosecone was attached to that master. I am only using hero reference to derive the most accurate shape of the cone. Also, Red 3 has a styrene bottom... further evidence the pyro master was made from the same parts utilized for the earlier Hero versions. This is good news for me as the reference I have is consistent... Hero models all have... styrene bottoms... always that grey color on top... so I can count on parts I am seeing on each bird representing a part that came from one source. But I am having a hard time making comparisons, specifically with panel lines. I guess I'm wondering what poor guy spent his time etching them into the tops and bottoms of all these parts. At least enough bucks for confirmed moco miniatures. As far as I can tell they are all the same, with the exception of Blue Leader/Red 2, but like you said we know this bird was separated from the rest for full-size reference and deviates from the standard design. So I guess what I want to see is variation in panel lines on the standard Heroes. If there is no variation then I will etch the panel lines into my masters. If this is not the case I guess I'll have to consider deviating from replicas of original parts in favor of practicality.

Is there any value to casting in the same type of polyurethane used back then? At the very least I would like to try to match the color. Has it been confirmed that this was the material used, and is it certain the hero fuselages is aluminum impregnated epoxy? Given their original learning curve I would like to think I could tackle these processes at home... but the aluminum makes this sort of a wild card.

A photo update is in the works. Thanks for the read.

First off,let me set your mind at ease. These were initially supposed to have had polyurethane fuselage bottoms,but after the fiaso with the mould it was decided to use a polystyrene fuselage,but this had its' problems too. These warped when glued,as the hot lights from the studios prevented polystrene from being used. This was cast from the styrene bottom in urethane resin instead. This followed the incorrect shape of the styrene fuselage. The only one that survived with this styrene was the converted master that was auctioned off.

This was reinforced with J.B. Weld inside because it wouldn't stop splitting (separated from the top),so it had to be glued in some way to keep it from doing this again. This is why you see the so called "pyro master" in the auction,as this was unusable. The Polyurethane that was used is also sold on another website. I'll PM the URL when I find it -it's on my favourites. The top of the first few fuselages was made from a polyurethane that would foam,but when mixed,and put under pressure wouldn't have the expansion that modern expanding foam has,as this was treated with a hardener. Contrary to what is believed on the RPF -this is why NONE of the pyro models have styrene on them,and none of the subsequent hero models have a styrene bottom either!

All the scribe lines were all the same,and were scribed by Grant McCune,and Lorne Peterson. The only things that were different were the chip panels (greeblies) all along the sides of the fuselages. From all the ILM modelers I've talked with past,and present - not one of the pyro models,or hero models ever used a styrene bottom.

[PB BB1]

Are you guys still talking about this old thing?

---

(02-13-2010, 11:08 AM)427 Cobra Wrote: First off,let me set your mind at ease. These were initially supposed to have had polyurethane fuselage bottoms,but after the fiaso with the mould it was decided to use a polystyrene fuselage,but this had its' problems too. These warped when glued,as the hot lights from the studios prevented polystrene from being used. This was cast from the styrene bottom in urethane resin instead. This followed the incorrect shape of the styrene fuselage. The only one that survived with this styrene was the converted master that was auctioned off.

This was reinforced with J.B. Weld inside because it wouldn't stop splitting (separated from the top),so it had to be glued in some way to keep it from doing this again. This is why you see the so called "pyro master" in the auction,as this was unusable. The Polyurethane that was used is also sold on another website. I'll PM the URL when I find it -it's on my favourites. The top of the first few fuselages was made from a polyurethane that would foam,but when mixed,and put under pressure wouldn't have the expansion that modern expanding foam has,as this was treated with a hardener. Contrary to what is believed on the RPF -this is why NONE of the pyro models have styrene on them,and none of the subsequent hero models have a styrene bottom either!

All the scribe lines were all the same,and were scribed by Grant McCune,and Lorne Peterson. The only things that were different were the chip panels (greeblies) all along the sides of the fuselages. From all the ILM modelers I've talked with past,and present - not one of the pyro models,or hero models ever used a styrene bottom.

Thank you Cobra, but I'm still trying to reconcile over here.

Except the Red 3 set reveals a styrene bottom. I get what you are saying about these fuselages BUT the first few must have used a styrene bottom, right? You know before the were totally fed up with their motor control miniatures. We can see the buck right next to the molds for the Hero buck in this photograph.


All I'm saying is of all the photos of the moco X wings under construction indicate a greyish top (like the pyro master pattern) and maybe a styrene bottom. My only evidence for a styrene bottom in this case is the Red 3 miniature.

And the only other versions would be the pyros themselves. Though perhaps incorrectly designated. Sure some of their destinies was to blow but it seems the goal was to create an out-of-the-mold complete X wing so they wouldn't have to painstakingly recreate panel lines and scratchbuild wings. Though you can hardly blame these guys as we are lucky to have any photos of their process at all.

[JAWS]

Very nice pictures Paul. Glad to see you back on the block. Any updates on your kit?

[PB BB1]

Hey, that fuselage picture is the kit update!

IMO the fuselage shape is the most important part about this project. I am debating now... go to town etching panel lines in the fuselage or make a mold and a new fiberglass master.

You might like to see whats next. Casting those pesky engines!

[JAWS]

Oh I thought was another ILM 0r MaxiBrut picture! Nice mate. I am very excited about this.

[79 Daytona]

COOL update!!!

[PB BB1]

I should have been more specific; that's my fuselage.

It may not look like much but there is a lot of precise work in there. The Maxi Brute definitely originates from a Hero buck... it just has to. There is no way it could not... having now spent so much time getting it just right (and still some work to be done)... it seems impossible to think the MB could have spawned so accurately from anyones scratchbuild. Prove it you say?

Spending way too much time with the Red 3 photos yielded yet another revalation. All this time I was thinking I would have to restore the edge/lip of the canopy (when viewed in profile) so there would be the step drop off to hold the 'glass' like on the originals. This would mean you would have to stop cutting before you got to the edge of the window. I was wrong again. Red 3 uses styrene sheet adhered to the inside of the fuselage to create the lip to hold the glass. This means even more variation in the shape of the finished canopies because you would first have to decide how much to take away for the window opening and then create the styrene frames for each window... without a panel line, step, or hard edge as a guide.

Granted this is some tricky work. There are obvious additions and subtractions to the MB and deciding which can often be frustrating. Did they take a little away, or did they add just a bit. I'm still working on a few problem spots in the back.

[JAWS]

Well give us more cause that was a real teaser.

[427 Cobra]

(03-01-2010, 05:04 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Are you guys still talking about this old thing?

---

Thank you Cobra, but I'm still trying to reconcile over here.

Except the Red 3 set reveals a styrene bottom. I get what you are saying about these fuselages BUT the first few must have used a styrene bottom, right? You know before the were totally fed up with their motor control miniatures. We can see the buck right next to the molds for the Hero buck in this photograph.

OK - let me clarify without revealing all the secrets that NDAs' have kept under wraps all these years. Red 3 was fixed with styrene - not made from it. This is a fuselage top mould - both positive,and the negative in this photo. That white block you see on the right was a weight laid on top to help seal the mould,so that there was no extra flash around the edges once the fuselage was removed from the mould. This is only ONE station where demoulding took place not all of them. There were several modelers working to remove these at one time. What most of you guys don't understand on here,the rpf,and all other forums is - the ILM modelers didn't just have to figure out how to build models,but they also had to know how to make moulds,and do wiring for lights,as well as paint them! This meant that there was more than one job to be done by all,and this is only one photo,so everyone thinks this is the only person to do this,and the only demoulding area for hero models,since there are no other photos showing this process.

(03-01-2010, 05:04 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: All I'm saying is of all the photos of the moco X wings under construction indicate a greyish top (like the pyro master pattern) and maybe a styrene bottom. My only evidence for a styrene bottom in this case is the Red 3 miniature.

And the only other versions would be the pyros themselves. Though perhaps incorrectly designated.

That model was not from the original Star Wars movie - it was not repainted,but it IS a newly moulded model for Empire! The original Red 3 did not have hollow wings - just the Empire version.

(03-01-2010, 05:04 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Sure some of their destinies was to blow but it seems the goal was to create an out-of-the-mold complete X wing so they wouldn't have to painstakingly recreate panel lines and scratchbuild wings. Though you can hardly blame these guys as we are lucky to have any photos of their process at all.

It was the destiny of ALL the pyro models to be destroyed. I don't understand why all you guys on the prf think there were "hero pyro" models,but none of these survived the final filming of Star Wars! Even Red 5 is gone now. This is why you only see the Empire,and Jedi versions of Red 3,and the original Red 2 from Star Wars. As far as scribe lines,you'd think that was the case,but it never happened that way. This is a urethane rubber mould,which urethane was a product of the sixties. This wouldn't be soft,and pliable enough to allow any small details like this to show once cured,which is another reason styrene was used,but it was found to be no better under the hot flourescent lights,as it would separate from the fuselage tops of the first three pyro models made. These had to be reworked. This is why is why decided to use a soft polyurethane for the bottoms,as this wouldn't warp,but would stay glued. The green tops are the original material colour of the X-wings fresh from the mould. Once it was figured out how to make the new bottoms for the fuselages,so that the internal workings would fit - these fuselage tops were mated to the bottoms. It wasn't so much how,or what to make the fuselage materials from as everyone thinks,but how to make the internals,and the externals work together.

The photos were Lorne Peterson,and Joe Johnstons' idea. This was to document that work was taking place in spite of the original moulding problems encountered at the ILM shop,much as we do on the forums today. George was becoming a little apprehensive about these moulds when he first heard that there was trouble on the horizon. George wanted to see what was done once progress began. There were others that also came in,and took pictures around the shop for posterity. Most of these were taken by ILM modelers,and the same type of camera was used for most of these pictures. The reason you don't see a lot of these photos is because,they were taken for personal reasons,and the only person you'll get them from are the people who took them.

(03-01-2010, 07:11 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Hey, that fuselage picture is the kit update!

IMO the fuselage shape is the most important part about this project. I am debating now... go to town etching panel lines in the fuselage or make a mold and a new fiberglass master.

You might like to see whats next. Casting those pesky engines!

Make a new fuselage master - this way,you'll have one to recast in case the second one fails for any reason.

(03-01-2010, 08:11 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: I should have been more specific; that's my fuselage.

It may not look like much but there is a lot of precise work in there. The Maxi Brute definitely originates from a Hero buck... it just has to. There is no way it could not... having now spent so much time getting it just right (and still some work to be done)... it seems impossible to think the MB could have spawned so accurately from anyones scratchbuild. Prove it you say?

Spending way too much time with the Red 3 photos yielded yet another revalation. All this time I was thinking I would have to restore the edge/lip of the canopy (when viewed in profile) so there would be the step drop off to hold the 'glass' like on the originals. This would mean you would have to stop cutting before you got to the edge of the window. I was wrong again. Red 3 uses styrene sheet adhered to the inside of the fuselage to create the lip to hold the glass. This means even more variation in the shape of the finished canopies because you would first have to decide how much to take away for the window opening and then create the styrene frames for each window... without a panel line, step, or hard edge as a guide.

Granted this is some tricky work. There are obvious additions and subtractions to the MB and deciding which can often be frustrating. Did they take a little away, or did they add just a bit. I'm still working on a few problem spots in the back.

Do you mean the window mulions? These are little recesses to allow glass,but none was ever used on any of the filming models,except Red 3 from Jedi - this was the only one to actually have glass permanently attached to its' canopy. The Empire model was bastardised from old moulds,and new styrene parts. The styrene was used because,it was easier to form. It was glued to the bottom engine housings as a homemade fix for the destruction that happened during the filming of Empire. This was done for reasons of posterity.

[PB BB1]

(03-01-2010, 11:14 AM)jasonwright.1972 Wrote: Well give us more cause that was a real teaser.

I'm trying Jase, but there's not much more to see. Just a bunch of bad castings... going to be meeting with a used-to-be Smooth-On salesman... my buddy's old classmate from an MFA program. This should take a lot of the guesswork out of what combination will work best for my modest setup!


Cobra Cris, Thanks for the thorough reply. I ALWAYS forget that Red 3 doesn't represent an ANH ship... though some of the parts are undoubtedly the same, as you said reused from what was left. Still a great point of reference but I guess I feel like the rug has been pulled. I need better true ANH reference and I know there are better versions of the Red 2 set. I see bits of them pop up here and there but all I have is the low-res Ken Rice/Uwe Fisher sets. If anyone has anything, please PM, I beg you!

I don't think I am choosing the right way to explain my thoughts on the hero pyro issue. I understand there is no in between. You have the motor controlled miniatures and the Pyros. I only meant to them, at the time, they must have thought their 'pyro' molds were the end of the process. They finally got it... after all the trouble... a complete X wing to do with as they please. In this case, explode! I am not of the thinking that parts were combined as they went. It seems logical to me; build the mocos... get molds ready for the rest of the doomed fleet. No time or need to build transitional versions.

So what is left to see? By my count we're only missing Red Leader. But which 3 X wings do we see locking their s foils in ANH. Red 5, Red 1, and...?

As Cobra Cris mentioned all we can see are lighting gels with a painted border on the early shots of Blue Leader and eventually abandoning 'glassing' the canopies all together.

Re: major construction accuracy. I can see places where the inside of the Hero buck was made to accept acrylic sheets attached to the tube of the armature. I'd like to include these in my construction as well, but I'm still wondering what exactly is going on for the hero bottoms. I do not agree the white thing on the end is just a weight to hold the mold in place. It is too precise and they did make styrene bottoms, if they used them or not; that is there vacuform buck of the bottom sitting right there. The hero fuselage, is already re-enforced by these acrylic sections to accept the fuselage tops and bottoms. Even though Red 3 has been repaired with styrene, the bottom is made of styrene. Look at the back, and the bottom mounting point. If its not styrene, its thin white something!

Yes the mulions! That is what they are called... again having forgotten that Red 3 is not ANH Red 3. Still, if they used a file to cut the windows on the ANH Hero versions... with no panel line, edge, or intention of holding glass... it really explains how each bird gets its unique canopy.

[MonsieurTox]

Hey Chris, Im ok with what you said except for the white block on the right of the pic. It doesnt look like a weight and if you look carefuly it has a median line drawn on it. And the it's not flat but it's angled, just about the same angle that the bottom of an X-Wing, maybe it's coincidence, but I cant believe that ! Because it also has the same lengh than the pull and positive/neg molds.

Anyway great job on the maxi-brute fuselage it really looks like an original ! I think you should sand a bit more the front of the fuselage (where it meets the nose), it looks more rounded on the pic with pull ?

[427 Cobra]

(03-02-2010, 03:23 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Cobra Cris, Thanks for the thorough reply.



So what is left to see? By my count we're only missing Red Leader. But which 3 X wings do we see locking their s foils in ANH. Red 5, Red 1, and...?!

We see four fighters going in with their attack foils opening,but only Red leader,Red six,Red 2,and Red 5 had hollow wings,as two of these were only incidental as to how they became the ones that would have motors in them. Red leader was first,and of course Red 5 were both designated to have motors,but Red 2,and Red 6. The hollow wings were intentional,so that everyone would know which ones had motors in them. Do we all remember when it was almost over,and Luke said to Wedge - "Get out of Wedge,you can't do any good back there!" Wedge was RED 2 - Red 1 was destroyed by this time,and so was RED 3! Both of these went right after Red 6 went down. This means that only two fighters survived the onslaught of the Empire = only Red 2,and Red 5 were left!

(03-02-2010, 03:23 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: As Cobra Cris mentioned all we can see are lighting gels with a painted border on the early shots of Blue Leader and eventually abandoning 'glassing' the canopies all together.

That is correct.

(03-02-2010, 03:23 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Re: major construction accuracy. I can see places where the inside of the Hero buck was made to accept acrylic sheets attached to the tube of the armature. I'd like to include these in my construction as well, but I'm still wondering what exactly is going on for the hero bottoms. I do not agree the white thing on the end is just a weight to hold the mold in place. It is too precise and they did make styrene bottoms, if they used them or not; that is there vacuform buck of the bottom sitting right there. The hero fuselage, is already re-enforced by these acrylic sections to accept the fuselage tops and bottoms. Even though Red 3 has been repaired with styrene, the bottom is made of styrene. Look at the back, and the bottom mounting point. If its not styrene, its thin white something!

That WAS a previous mould failure that was cut in half,and filled with plaster - sorrry,I forgot. This was used as a weight afterwards. There are begining scribe lines,but they're not complete. "Everything was tried to make these not warp,but it was a dismal failure. We couldn't fill these with resin,or make them any thicker,so something had to be done to make a better fuselage bottom,so back to the drawing board. We tried styrene,but it warped,and it was too soft,and the original fuselage moulds are no longer of any use to us,as the design of the fighter has changed." - Lorne Peterson,Cinefantastic 1979

This is an old interview that I found while looking for archival footage. I know that this is correct,because everytime someone asks Lorne a question - it's almost always exactly what the other ILM guys remember as well. Styrene was used initially,but the hot studio lights,and the mismatch in materials made it impossible to make a realitic effect,as the fuselage bottom warped down the entire length of the aircraft itself! It was then decided to make these out of the same material as the top halves. Three of these bucks were made. Two,then another one after the fiasco with the mould.

It was decided that the last two gallons of urethane rubber be used,and another two moulds were made from the first castings to make it faster. This would explain why Red 3 from Empire was so haphazard looking in its' appearance. If one if the later bottom moulds was used,and the resin shrank generationally,then it would have the same distortion of the styrene bottom ones,especially if one of those were used to cast it with!

(03-02-2010, 03:23 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Yes the mulions! That is what they are called... again having forgotten that Red 3 is not ANH Red 3. Still, if they used a file to cut the windows on the ANH Hero versions... with no panel line, edge, or intention of holding glass... it really explains how each bird gets its unique canopy.

The window mulions were supposed to be there to support glass originally. I think this was Steve Gawleys' idea,or Lorne Peterson,and Joe Johnstons' idea to do this. Most of the stuff at ILM was a group of ideas from more than one person. These came together to make the models what they were. It was usually a collaborative effort to get the job done,except casting,as this was a very new,and difficult process at the time. The man originally responsible for that was "Roger R" (Roger Rasmussen. He quit shortly after the first three inital moulds were made because he got hurt with some type of chemical agent they were using to demould this stuff. His name's not mentioned in the credits,as he wasn't part of the ILM crew anymore when the movie wrapped.



I understand what you're saying,Paul. The white you're seeing is paint. Remember,these were all painted white,and not after assembly. These were all primed with black automotive primer,then sprayed with gloss white,and steel wooled,as there was no satin paint in the seventies! You had three choices in paint sheen at that time - Gloss,semi-gloss,and flat. The top white coat was gloss white laqcuer made by plastikote.

The hard to reach areas were painted first,and any areas that glue was needed to be applied to were simply sanded off with 400 grit and glued together afterwards. There was also Valspar brand lacquer based primer that was used for Battlestar Galactica,as well as Star Wars. This was used for panel contrast on the X-wing fighters. The weathering was done for realism. Imagine if all the rebel ships looked identical except for their wing numbers!

(03-02-2010, 01:31 PM)MonsieurTox Wrote: Hey Chris, Im ok with what you said except for the white block on the right of the pic. It doesnt look like a weight and if you look carefuly it has a median line drawn on it. And the it's not flat but it's angled, just about the same angle that the bottom of an X-Wing, maybe it's coincidence, but I cant believe that ! Because it also has the same lengh than the pull and positive/neg molds.

Anyway great job on the maxi-brute fuselage it really looks like an original ! I think you should sand a bit more the front of the fuselage (where it meets the nose), it looks more rounded on the pic with pull ?

You're right,Julien. This was a failed attempt with the styrene,but it became an unahppy memory until one of the guys wanted to keep this as a doorstop,so John Henderson filled it with plaster,and used it for weight instead of clamping it.

[JAWS]

Bump! Any updates Paul???

[MonsieurTox]

(03-02-2010, 11:01 PM)427 Cobra Wrote: You're right,Julien. This was a failed attempt with the styrene,but it became an unahppy memory until one of the guys wanted to keep this as a doorstop,so John Henderson filled it with plaster,and used it for weight instead of clamping it.

Great behind the scene story, thanks for sharing Chris !

[JAWS]

Any updates Paul?

[PB BB1]

Hey guys sorry to have dropped off the charts... its been one helluva year so far.

January:
Tree branch crushes part of car roof and breaks windshield.

February:
Bodyshop won't admit car... because the clutch went on the way over.

March:
Events all month at work Fri and Sat... my days off. Then 2 weeks apart, two attacks of something; BAD news.

April:
Mystery ailment from March diagnosis in progress, and will later this week result in the loss of my drivers license.

The good news is I'll be home to work on models after i catch the bus home from work. An update this week will absolutely include the finished upper fuselage. Oh and the nose cone is much different than before... I dare say I think I got it.

[427 Cobra]

These things usually only happen to me!

[JAWS]

Damn! Sorry to hear about your troubles Paul. Had some of those myself... Hope your well & safe. Look very much forward to an update. Very excited actually, "Finished upper fuselage!"

[JAWS]

Paul you still on this or finished it?

[427 Cobra]

I've been wondering that myself. I just hope nothing has happened to him, as our befallen brother, Don.

~ Cobra Chris

[PB BB1]

Finished? Not quite.

I am still alive, and driving again. But you can add missing two of my front teeth for a little while to my years shit list. Frankly, just waiting for this year to turn around for me.

The X:
Been plugging away when I have the time. Thanks to a built vintage 1/15 Stug sniped from ebay I was able to complete the droid strip out of all styrene. Hard to tell from the phone photo, but I'm really proud of all the placement of parts. With plenty of reference of the original I was able to really nail it and make improvements without altering authenticity.

Jase, I'll be sending a duplicate your way.

Here's where I'm at with cockpit parts:

For now. What the heck are these parts from?


Had a look at the 1/24 Airfix Stuka dashboard and it could be the red square. BUT it was released in 76, and I was of the understanding that these Xs had already been completed. No clue on the yellow part, and I may not have outlined it correctly. The green bit at the back, maybe a vertical up side down rifle? and its not highlighted but what the heck is flat thing making the top of the box w/rivets? There is something glued on top which I've already IDed, but the flat piece itself with the raised details has me puzzled. There is a part in the sealab, but I'm hoping that is not it. Blue and purple anyone's guess. Don't want to make any substitutions unless I have to.

Not much to see otherwise, and while I do consider the fuselage to be completed, I always find myself coming back to it for tweaking. Had to recut the strip behind R2 as I did not have it deep enough. It is difficult to build straight forms on top of the thin plastic and I had to re-enforce/correct areas that had become bowed. Then its onto a fiberglass duplicate for panel lines. Found a silicon caulk tutorial that will be perfect for making a pull or two. More on this when I get back.

I'm off for a little road trip tomorrow, but you can count on seeing some serious photo updates on this project when I return. Not going to make my original goal of kitting this summertime, but I believe there is hope for this fall.

[JAWS]

Paul am so glad to hear from you mate! Was actually a bit worried. Sounds like youve been battered. I really glad that your ok & will live to fight on. The droid strip looks awsome buddy. Great work. Am so looking forward to you casting this build up. Take some time out & get yourself better mate. We'll be here when your ready.

[PB BB1]

Thanks for the support but I still consider myself lucky. Been healthy all my life then this weirdness. Can still walk run eat sleep and some of the other fun activities that make you feel human. Don't worry bout me.

[427 Cobra]

Yeah, I guess that as long as you're alright we're all happy. Why would your teeth just fall out?

Well, on a lighter note: I don't know where all these kit parts came from, as I don't remember any of the X-wings having any of these parts inside the cockpit, or being as detailed. I have a prototype of this, but I haven't studied it, or even seen it for over a year. As far as I know, the only parts inside were visible when seen from above. I have acess a pyro kit that's in pieces right now, but when I get the chance to see it again, I'll take a look at it.

In the meantime, take a look at this: http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=74&

This is what was used as the casting material for the original X's. It is a polyurethane resin that dries hard without being brittle.

[PB BB1]

Imagine a nickel sized hole in the bone of your face right behind your nose. One of them was a false tooth, abscessed at the root. My body stopped growing bone there to eliminate the infection, and it took the nearby area out as well. I've got a bone graft (sp?) for a few months, then I'm getting implants right into my jaw.

Same brand, or just that it is a polyurethane resin? The same as a lot of foams but much more dense correct? The link is a shade of ivory. I wonder if I could use the color matched TIE hatch photos to get a batch of resin made in the amber/orange just because. Probably has yellowed over the years, but it would be nice to chip some paint and see that familiar color beneath.

RE: Cockpit.
The one I have is heavily modified, and I believe a recast of the Icons customization. The bottom photo is an original, or derived from as the two part cockpit has been combined with the fuselage. Not sure anyone cares about matching the original interiors, since the live action shots feature different detailing entirely. BUT I feel compelled to match it.

[JAWS]

Paul that sounds really screwed up what your going through. Hope it all works out for the best."Use the Force Luke" Im sure your on tghe right path.

[427 Cobra]

(08-05-2010, 03:50 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Imagine a nickel sized hole in the bone of your face right behind your nose. One of them was a false tooth, abscessed at the root. My body stopped growing bone there to eliminate the infection, and it took the nearby area out as well. I've got a bone graft (sp?) for a few months, then I'm getting implants right into my jaw.

My cousin has periodontal disease. This was caused by not brushing, which is truly stupid because the V.A. hospital paid for his dental work - all $1400.00 of it! He has to have laser surgery for it now. He has one more treatment to get rid of it so that the tooth he got knocked out, and replaced with a cap will be removed without further infection. He has a protruding front tooth that has been coming forward to the point where the cap is noticable, and now needs to be removed, and replaced with a completely new false tooth.

(08-05-2010, 03:50 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Same brand, or just that it is a polyurethane resin? The same as a lot of foams but much more dense correct? The link is a shade of ivory. I wonder if I could use the color matched TIE hatch photos to get a batch of resin made in the amber/orange just because. Probably has yellowed over the years, but it would be nice to chip some paint and see that familiar color beneath.

The original colour was a mismatch, and none of the parts actually came out the same hue. This is the same stuff, but I'm not sure if it was the same company. Remember - it's been thirty years plus since these were made, not all the details are going to be memorable. The dark colour of the material was actually added to it to make painting a little easier to hide the cast underneath. The foam look was actually the result of not having a vacuum to remove the bubbles from the resin while it set up. This polyurethane lightens with age, and light fading. There was no UV dye protectant in this stuff then, so it wasn't lightfast, any exposure to bright light will destroy the original colouring of the resin underneath. I have some of this polyurethane resin, but it becomes more, and more brittle with age. This means that you don't want to handle it more than neccessary!

~ Cobra Chris

[PB BB1]

Whew and that dental work ain't cheap either. Insurance or not they find a way to make you pay.

Anyhow, still enough left in the budget for a small project. Like a modest vacform table. This was the first pull and with the help of a friend later I was able to get pulls so nice that I had to cut the plastic to get the tools out. lol.


Cobra Chris has provided some excellent information on materials used throughout this thread. Big thanks for that! After some serious consideration of what will be best I've decided to diverge a bit. It will be much easier to vacuum form fuselage halves. BUT I'll have to use negative molds to do so. I've read the results are usually better than positive 'bucks' as webbing is no longer an issue.

I hope Frank does not mind, but I'm waiting on the Pyro X to get here before I panel my fuselage. This will certainly take some of the guesswork out, but I am debating on which panel template to follow. It would be great to match Blue Leader (Red2) or perhaps leave a few off just so everyone has an accurate base to start from. That's right EVERYONE.

The above experiments were with .030 white styrene. The MB is probably thinner than that in many places. A SS replica needs to be thicker. I'd like to step it up as thick as possible, but will not be compromising surface detail. Sticking to this method is significant. It will be quick to make, and the cost will be lower. The downside is that strength is compromised. That doesn't mean you couldn't paint some resin in there, or build a skeleton underneath for a metal tube.

I keep coming back to it, but I am very happy with how this is coming along.


I'm thinking this Hero fuselage kit would include:

Resin:
Backplate
Droid strip
R2
Pilot
2 Part cockpit
Nosecone

Styrene:
Fuselage top and bottom

You'd be on your own for the wings, but I'd like to talk with Jase a bit more about this.

Feels good to be on top of this project again. I'm ahead of myself already so please no PMs with interest. When the time comes, you'll know. Keep checking this thread.

[PB BB1]

Careful Chris I don't think you have your reference in order.

That photo was from Beaz on the RPF, and on the left is the ICONS master. It shares the same origins as the one Frank is running. He has posted two photos of the parts. One of them has the masters in grey primer and another is a set of duplicate parts in tan resin. If I were him I'd be offended.

Let me express my motivations for building this thing. It's my own holy grail. It's 1997 and I'm paging through the sharper image catalog. Before I even knew the meaning of studio scale I knew there was nothing better than having the same thing that was filmed. The rest is history. I followed the progression of every kit.

My background is in fine arts and illustration. I've saved every photo of every production X wing I could get my hands on. I acknowledge I obsess often over this project. You hardly ever see finished kits salzo and CC alike.
Eventually I bought a V3 and as soon as I opened the box I knew I'd be buildingy my own. It's not a judgement, it's a fine kit... more of a personality trait that I'm drawn to the full experience.

Frank is a member here and I have offered my help in fabricating a cockpit for his kit. I'm not sure he even needs it as he may have sourced the production version. I don't obsess over images for nothing. His masters are from production parts. Honestly, Chris. I fear your posts may jeopardize my involvement or reputation.

I'm not here to step on kit mastering toes. Building my own is my primary motivation. I'm not worried about maintaining appeal. I'm just felt I should give some back by offering my work to anyone bothering going through the trouble.

[JAWS]

Paul you know what your talking about. Chris needs to watch how he writes. Theres a very fine line that is extremely hard to determine on a screen. Anyway PM replied to mate & seriously cannot wait to be involved in this project with you mate. This is another couple of dreams coming true right here. Keep us posted.

[427 Cobra]

OK, Paul - I didn't say that Beaz didn't post it, but I originally saw it posted by Rob. HE said it was an Maxi-Brute because it IS, not an ICONS model (see photo below), and I too have been obssessing over small details, but only as a modeler - not as my lifes' work! I want people to know the truth, and not a purported truth told by a few unknowns to impress the world of modeling. I don't know who ratted me out as a trouble maker to Frank, but honestly I wasn't doubting that he held one of these, but the orange one on the rpf doesn't strike me as being genuine, even though a few people see it otherwise without actual proof! That's all I was saying, and I think you were just as offended only because of Franks' standing, not thinking of him as a regular modeler. Since I'm basically nobody on these forums no one respects my opinion - professionally, or personally. Who should really be offended? I've been modeling for over thirty years, and I'm no beginner, or newbie that fell off the turnip truck! I understand that Frank worked for Master Replicas, but their version never saw the light of day - I (and others) wonder why. The ICONS was idealised to a certain extent, as it was scratch made, and not recast from an original model no matter what anyone says! This was already proven on the rpf.

Why you'd leave is beyond me, Paul. No one is going to hate you because of my opinion which means nothing to the members of the rpf anyway! They only care if someone is bashing them whether it be neccessarily, or unneccessarily so. Frank's a big boy, and he can take care of himself - he doesn't need anyone here to hold his hand. Since you're obviously offended, I'll delete my post, even though I shouldn't except that I have to for the sake of the crybabies of the rpf to have something else to bitch about. Contrary to popular belief - not everything they say is gospel truth, but largely speculation, since no one from the original ILM shop of old can, or will chime in to dispell all these rumours, and hearsay from a few insiders that aren't ILM/Kerner employees, but would rather everyone respect their word over anyone elses - does that sound right? I don't think so......

I don't know who told you that this MAXI-BRUTE model was an ICONS, but that as you can clearly see is wrong! The ICONS model is the one on the left, the MAXI-BRUTE on the right. Now you can see for yourself the actual truth, not a bullshit made up version that you will see from time to time on these modeling forums. I don't know why the rpf people act the way they do to each other, but I guess that it's because they're used to acting the same way, and kissing the same asses all the time, and attacking anyone new who opposes, or threatens their system, or way things have been as of late. It's either conform, or be deformed/banned. I saw one poor bastard being bashed for asking a simple question, not rehashing an old thread. There are also those who are starstruck because they've worked for one of the retailers that supports the rpf, and they'll ride the coat tails of these model makers, and kiss their asses because they're semi-famous (on the modeling forums). This is sad, and it's what also keeps me away from the rpf. Yes, this IS how I feel about it! Now you see why no one with an ILM pedigree will join in to confirm, or deny any of these rumours over there. I don't think I'll be jumping in here anymore.

~ Cobra Chris

Look very closely, if you are a true fan of the X-wing - you'll see that these two are very close, but not exactly the same size, or proportions.



Once again, Maxi-Brute on the left, Captain Cboard on the right for comparison. I saved this from PHArchivist (Rob Brownings') post on the rpf.

[JAWS]

Chris you need to chill out. Paul is just stating a fact that you need to be mindful of 'how' you/we/all of ust type what we're trying to say. Im going to be helping Paul out with his kits which is a huge deal for me. So just be nice & mindful. No need for grumpy faces etc. Sheeesh come on man your really testing my patience. Just stop & think about what you write before you type it. Just remember we're not Industry people, mostly.

[PB BB1]

I don't even know what is happening now. Totally confused.

To lighten the mood here's a vac'ed stormtrooper.

[427 Cobra]

That wasn't my intention, guys! I just don't want you to put your faith in something that can be substantiated 100% beyond a shadow of doubt. No hard feelings. On the other hand - that stormtrooper looks good. 3" 3/4 even looks cool vacuumformed, I need one of those.

~ Cobra Chris

[PB BB1]

Regardless of who has said what where, I do think that dark blue resin-cast X shares a lineage to the production Pyros and not the MB. This is a strictly visual comparison. Things we never see in any replica or rocket. The unmodified cockpit. You can just barely make it out from the photos. The wing blocks as well, there is the notched line that covers the gap on the inside along with matching chipping pattern. This matches the Pyro master that went for auction. Production lineage is not in question IMO. Death star surface tiles reveal cast wing greeblies perfectly matching the wings that go with that master. Sure I guess someone could have had access to these production parts without a fuselage, I'll give you that. However, to me this just doesn't seem likely. Visual tells alone indicate this set in its entirety shares some lineage to a Pyro, even if it is one generation removed from its halved construction.

I get it. Build my own, make it how I see it. I will. I don't want anyone to have the perception that I'm self proclaimed savior of the illusive ANH X. I'm not. Nearly all of the part IDs had been made when I started this last year, and many subtleties of the form have just become obvious to me. These are JUST models at the end of the day. I think we all have common goals and projects we want to see turn out with the best of all information available. I'll probably never take on a project like this again. There is nothing else I'm interested in as much, and I'd simply lack the motivation to complete other projects of this scale.

Yeah, a lot of tough crowd over there on the RPF but I still believe were just a bunch of guys trying to help each other out. I do not see it as a rivalry or competition. Agree to disagree on the above master, Chris. That said, I'm not picking a fight. PM me your address and I'll send you a stormtrooper.

[JAWS]

Pauls gone vaccuform mad!

[PB BB1]

The real trouble is now I look at anything and think hey that would look really cool as a sheet of plastic. Lol. There's more vintage figures I've done.

[JAWS]

You could make tiles for your toilet or something? I must try this. I think I shall build a vaccuform box on the weekend. the Dyson vaccuum should work a treat at that task!