1/24 Hero X Wing Build with Maxi Brute Fuselage

[PB BB1]

The X is iconic, no doubt about it. To me the ANH X is the X wing. A shame as most have been abused or partly modified. I hope to pay proper tribute to the original builders of these fabulous miniatures.

It was rumored the Estes Maxi Brute fuselage had been vac-formed over an original. However, when held it is immediately apparent that this is not the case. I wish it was too, but further research reveals it was built up from scratch. The master pattern for the Maxi Brute back plate, droid strip and a segment of the fuselage can be found at the SWCA:
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=...&item_id=59028

Seemingly no direct lineage to the originals besides the claim on the box... or is there? Have a look at pages 10 and 11 of the 1977 Estes Christmas Catalog:
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/cat.../77estxmas.pdf

Obviously the writer has taken a few liberties but this does establish some lineage. Estes staff did go there and handled the models. There is even a tiny photo of a "Wayne" measuring a Y Wing and a Charlie Webb credited for taking over 500 photos. Now there is a portfolio I'd like to see.

The Maxi kit comes with a wing blueprint that measures out to the size of a Hero wing. The cannon depicted is dead on to all of my studio reference as well. My hypothesis is that the kit was made from a set of measurements taken during the visit.

This build begins with the engine master from the Phantom II engine cut and recombined, with panel lines added before gluing. This dark green plastic is from the 1976 release of the Phantom kit, and can be brittle. Speaking of brittle plastic, I have had terrible luck with the landing gear bits from the whitley. The one at the top was removed from another master in 6 pieces and has been reassembled. It is difficult to see in the photo but the detail is now a bit rough from the repair. Even Tenax couldn’t save this one… off to ebay for another and grabbed up the elephant kit required for this build from the same seller. Not sure if it was a result of packing but 1 of the 2 from the new kit was also broken. Gluing this one back together was a piece of cake, though.


Also began construction of the strip that goes behind R2. I paid special attention to the Hurricane bit. If you have ever seen the kit-part you know that it does not sit flat; with a gap for another part that continues the raised border along the edge. The ILM droid strip looks to have some filler in there. I wanted mine to sit flat on the Scharnhorst deck so I used some bits from the Hurricane to approximate the shape of filler on the original.


Getting the droid strip right was a PITA. You have to cut the sides off, drill out the raised circle, but leave the lip the thickness of the rest of the raised borders. I backed the entire thing with styrene but added an extra slice under the Hurricane part so everything sits flush... can't have any undercuts if its going in rubber.


Its a start...

[JAWS]

Kool mate. thanks for droppin in with your XWing build. I nearly bought a Maxi Brut. I think I might see if its still available. This is going to be a great build thread. Cheers mate.

[427 Cobra]

The Maxi-Brute models' fuselage was directly recast from a reassembled pyro model,and not scratch made. Which one is still unclear. This was confirmed by Estes themselves through the original owner of this forum a couple months ago - August,maybe? There were however,some parts that weren't recast from the original. This would explain why some,if not all of this is the exact same size.

There was a model of Red 3 that was featured at the Hard Rock cafe that was purported to be from Star Wars,but it was just an ICONS model that was painted,and modified to look like the original pyro version.

Your links don't work at this time. I keep getting error messages. The other photo doesn't show up at all - it's just a red X.

[PB BB1]

Can you point me in the direction of that material? I understand the Icons was derived from a Pyro, but I see no visual evidence that the Maxi was... if anything it looks to be based on the first X Wing made, Red 2. It has a slightly fatter nose and short turkey feathers. There is even a wing diagram that measures out to the size of a hero wing included with the rocket.

EDIT: Perhaps I exceeded photobucket's free limit? Photos look okay for me, let me know if you still can't see them.

[427 Cobra]

I don't know if it was Red 2 or Red 3 reassembled from what was left of it,but Estes did recast one of the original ILM models for sure! The ICONS was purportedly made from scratch according to a 3-D modeling program. This wasn't recast from any known source.

The story was that the Maxi-Brute was recast from a pyro model that was preserved in a box in the archives,but never saw the light of day after Estes was done with it. I heard that one of the ILM modelers put it back together for this recast,but nothing ever happened after this session.

This was a while ago,so I don't know who it was that my source got this information from was reliable enough,or not. I read that from someone else on another forum chatroom as well,as my un-named source. I believe it to be true. There's a lot of speculation about these models,but no one has come forth with any useful information other than what I just posted here.

We all know that the original ILM models were kitbashed,and scratch built parts,but none of the modelers on this,or any other forum are aware of any of the events,or in which order any of the things that transpired to the end of filming. Everything else is conjecture beyond what we can see. Maybe all the secrecy surrounding all this is simply because no one at that time cared,nor was there an ILM model fan following as there is today.

What happened to Red 5? Why is Red 3 painted with a different scheme than it originally had in Star Wars? Many people on the RPF think it was saved,and repainted. Do any of these guys remember that Red 3,as well as Red leader were PYRO MODELS??? These were destroyed in the filming process once it was established as to how these would be obliterated with pyrotechnics. There were only 7 of these made for the movie - Red 1,2,3,4,5,6,and Red12. These are all visible in the art of Star Wars,and other books.

There was a Red 3 model used for Empire,but why was its' top right wing broken? Was this Master Replicas' fault? Was this why they lost their license? Who knows? I saw the photo session of this,but it doesn't have the finesse of the original ILM models - even the pryo versions were cleaner with their glue lines. This Red 3 model looks a little sloppy compared to the original ILM models of the seventies.


The very top photo in your first post on this page has an image code on it,but it still has a red X beside it.

[PB BB1]

Those first two we're supposed to be links; use these instead.

Master Patterns of backplate and strip for Maxi Brute X Wing.
http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp...m_id=59028
Keep in mind there are other parts in there from Estes smaller scale X as well.

Definitely check out the Estes catalog, as an article in the back documents their visit to Van Nuys:
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalog...stxmas.pdf

[PB BB1]

As for the lineage back to the Hero versions... yeah what a ride. I've been through all of the research on the RPF and other forums years ago but recently someone posted a chart documenting when and who completed the X and Y filming miniatures. Its up on the RPF now, but does little to tell us more about construction/materials. Just a timeline really.

But look sharp. Red 1 is on the table twice in the shot of the proud modelmakers. One Hero, one pyro. Best guess is Red 3 represented more than just one X in ESB and ROTJ. Mods we're made for it to double as Red 5 with landing gear down. What I want to know is what happened to Red Leader and the other Hero models? Rumor has it that one was stolen during production, and I heard Grant McCune still has 'his' in his office to this day.

Damn, I would love to see those photos taken during the Estes visit.

Almost done the engine master:


Onto the Maxi Brute X fuselage comparison:

[JAWS]

Would have been pretty sweet if I had have scored that XWing Master Patter that was on auction recently... I wonder if anyone knows who got that. This is looking really good mate. I love the work you put into your builds Paul. Am very greatful you are takeing the time to share this with us here as I know posting this stuff takes up time.

[79 Daytona]

WOW!! Great start i can't wait to see more. Many many years ago i bought one of those Estes rocket kit and though it had a better overall look then the old MPC kit did.

[dbhs]

Wow. This is looking great. Looking forward to more.

[427 Cobra]

(11-24-2009, 08:02 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: But look sharp. Red 1 is on the table twice in the shot of the proud modelmakers. One Hero, one pyro.

Actually,look CLOSER - NO THERE ISN'T! That's Red 2 you're truly seeing. I'm going to put this falacy to rest once,and for all! This is a myth perpetuated by the members of the RPF,but it's not true. They think they're seeing something that really isn't there. I think it's because of this first photo that isn't very clear. How do you get a hero version of a model that's slated to be destroyed? Besides,that picture is too grainy,and fuzzy to get any real detail from.


How do they figure that the model behind Red leader (already finished) is another version,when most of these have yet to be finished painted at the time this picture was taken?! This is a falacy that is being perpetuated by Nwerke of the RPF - he thinks the model in the back (behind Red leader) is the " hero version" of this PYRO model! As you can see - there's no way to tell which one is which,except for the characteristics that only these three models that are decorated have. Yellow canopy - Red 4,red laser canon of the left wing - Red 6 (behind Red 4),and of course,Red leader in its' finished state. The model behind Red leader is a pyro model,as it's wing details are boxed in just like the other pyro models were. This could very well be Red 3,as this wouldn't span the wing enough to be seen from this angle. The laser canons' back edge further obstructs the view of the wing number.





I understand that they look similar,but Red 2 also had a very clean nosecone albeit with a yellow colour (that washed out with the harsh lighting),and a little dirt spot on the same side of the fuselage as Red leader. But the poor quality of this photo,and the bad lighting makes it hard to see the second stripe on the top left wing. Look at the top right wing after Red 5 - you'll see a very small second red stripe beside the one that looks like it's attached to the chevron. Also - look at the nosecone of Red leader,then look at the nosecone of Red 2 - the one that you think is a "hero version" of it. Red leaders' is dirty - Red 2s' isn't.

Maybe the same guys that painted Red leader started to paint Red 2 the same after having a few too many beers on the job? Who knows? No two modelers worked completely on the same model to keep from repeating the exact same paint sceme is my guess. This doesn't mean that they wouldn't include a few of the same characteristics from one model to the other. This photo was furnished by a member of the RPF who also knows that there was no hero version of Red leader. There are 7 models on this table - the last being Red 12. Therefore,we know that these are the only X-wings that exist. This was done,as to show their work was finished,and that they were proud of it.



This is Red 12 - Red 6,as only it has red laser canons,and Red 4 from left to right.




This is John Dykstra with his hand on the actual Red leader. If you're looking at this thinking that Red leader is also the second model to the left of it- DON'T,as it's not! There is more weathering/dirt by the canopy of Red 2. Remember,Red leader was very clean.




Here's what you guys think you're seeing as a scorch mark.
Also noteworthy,is that none of these ILM models had glass in them - these were film gels that were painted on the outside of the canopy edges,and lightly tacked into place with a sticky glue that wasn't permanent. Look closely at this picture,and you'll see the raised edges. I just wonder why none of the RPF detectives never caught this?





Here you can see damage that's not visible in the movie. This also proves that Red 2 was very dirty,and also similarly distressed in the same area as Red leader was. Look at the small chipping on the nosecone of Red 2 - by the line what the top,and bottom halves meet.



With this lighting being farther away, you can see more detail than with the light being right on top of it washing all the detail out. Remember - when you see something far away,it makes all the detail wash out,and non-existent when looking at it. This is also compounded with poor lighting,and lack of focus. The poor optical clarity of the camera also contributes to this. The higher the resolution - the clearer the picture.

Resolution - not definition,as it should be properly said.



This (for the sake of argument) is Red 12. This is the seventh model on the table.



Before you become offended,or whatever your reaction to this post - I too thought that there were two Red leaders when I looked at some of these pictures. I poured over these for hours trying to make sense of them. I saw the photo with the wing numbers superimposed in it on the RPF,but I don't remember who,or where I downloaded that from. They made it easier to figure out which one was truly which,and not an assumuption with a fuzzy photograph. After seeing these,and comparing along with talking to a few others,I figured the exact same thing that I posted here,so that you all can know the truth,and not a bunch of misguided guesses.

[79 Daytona]

WOW!!! Great pic's some of which i've never seen before and thanks for the info it really gives me better insight of the ILM models that i did'nt know.

[777]

(11-25-2009, 09:57 AM)79 Daytona Wrote: WOW!!! Great pic's some of which i've never seen before and thanks for the info it really gives me better insight of the ILM models that i did'nt know.

Me three, those snaps are bloody great!

[Richard_2001]

(11-25-2009, 09:57 AM)79 Daytona Wrote: WOW!!! Great pic's some of which i've never seen before and thanks for the info it really gives me better insight of the ILM models that i did'nt know.

I agree that they are great and it is nice to see that ILM had a scheme devised for 6-12 via an actual picture versus a person's drawing of it.

Thanks for the information and the lovely picture of red 12

Richard

[dbhs]

I had never heard of a Red 12. Has anyone ever done that version in Studio Scale before?

[Kuhn Global]

LOLOLOL.... I must say that there are a lot of mis-conceptions of the X-wings as they were, and are still being discussed. Some of the so-called "facts" even pulled from Chronicles and other 'official" sources are even wrong compared to what the actual, original artists have to say that did these beasties. So don't get too upset when folks debate things and get 'huffy' because they believe they know better. Even some of the original artists can't agree as to what originally happened. Many brain cells were destroyed making these beautiful models we all cherish.... LOL

For instance... the white over black paint on the X-wings... in the books... that is how it was done... even in some photos we can see this.... but ask the man in the photos himself.... and he will tell you that was only on one or two birds... to test what it looked like and effects it could have in front of the camera. And... further more... that they were painted with a brand light grey that still exists today, but changed it's color format for that specific grey years ago. BLASPHEMY!!!... according to those who argue constantly. LOL

My point being... until we really invent time travel... we will really never know what truths are what.

I know a few people that believe that Maxi-Brute was an actual pull from a hero bird.... and others that dismiss that altogether.... no matter how accurate it seems.

My bottom line is that if it looks like an excellent X-wing... then it is. Be Happy! For those of us that are well over 40, it is much better than anything we had, or made growing up.

I am looking forward to viewing more on this Maxi Brute Build!

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(12-04-2009, 05:51 PM)dbhs Wrote: I had never heard of a Red 12. Has anyone ever done that version in Studio Scale before?

Clay has one planned Doug. As do I.. eventually. There is also a few more photos of this that I believe exist, but have yet to see them since I released the one above originally..... a top and side shot from what I am told. They will eventually make their way to me through the grape vine.... and then.... to everyone from there. Unless, of course, select photos are released before they get to me.... that is when we may all do the Snoopy Happy Dance! That will be a great day.

To view more X-Wing reference click HERE. Use it all as you wish... that is why it got released after all.

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(11-25-2009, 01:58 AM)427 Cobra Wrote: Before you become offended,or whatever your reaction to this post - I too thought that there were two Red leaders when I looked at some of these pictures. I poured over these for hours trying to make sense of them. I saw the photo with the wing numbers superimposed in it on the RPF,but I don't remember who,or where I downloaded that from. They made it easier to figure out which one was truly which,and not an assumuption with a fuzzy photograph. After seeing these,and comparing along with talking to a few others,I figured the exact same thing that I posted here,so that you all can know the truth,and not a bunch of misguided guesses.

Agreed,... many assumptions are made.

Don't forget that some of the birds seen on those tables are PYRO models.

All of the above stated.... I definitely cannot and do not claim to know anything as absolutes.... even with killer photo reference.

[427 Cobra]

These models were originally made with a polyurethane resin fuselage,and polystyrene bottom on some. These were formed from a buck that was made by casting the original model over a wooden form. This was made from urethane.

The resin of these was originally a catapillar yellow that was painted over with a tan primer over the pyro models,and a black primer on top of that. The same treatment was used for all models. The tan wasn't satisfactory,as you couldn't tell where all the white paint was applied evenly,so it was decided to use black under the white. This is why you'll see some patches that are dark yellow/orange in colour,and not tan where the paint was intentionally removed. The same is also true for the four foor Return of the Jedi model. Polyurethane resists aging in colour,and it's easier to use - more than other resins,which is why it was used. Remember,this was new technology back in the day. It took several tries by the ILM team in small quatities to get this down without having to throw away a lot of expensive product.

When we were all a lot younger,all you had to choose from is the MPC model,or the Maxi-Brute model. This latter was also formed from the same buck - not simply measured,then a scratch made version offered to the public. Yes,the Star Wars chronicles is wrong most of the time. That lends me to believe that this guy was making a lot of his misinformation up,or he was high at the time he wrote it.

The ILM models were kitbashed to save a lot of time,and money to make an entirely new vehicle design. This also saved them from having to make forms for a lot of small details,and complex parts with the new moulding technology that was shown to them by a few experienced mould makers at the time.

[Kuhn Global]

Great points all around Chris!

When did the Maxi-Brute originally become available?

[427 Cobra]

The first year of the Maxi-Brute was 1978. This was the fall release,and it was the earliest version ever made. There were no scribe lines on it,but it was only cast for the fuselage. The rest of the parts were made from scratch,as this was only intended to be a rocket version of the X-wing fighter,and not an uber-perfect 100% accurate model for display.

This is why so many people dispute the origin of this model,as the greeblies were cast,and added to the fuselage after the original ILM buck cast was taken to the factory to be massproduced. This was in the late summer of 1977 (August,or September). This was announced in RC modeler magazine in a small advert. This was done to appeal to the RC modeling geeks,as this was a huge business at that time. Anything that flew was big money.

It would six months later before the actual summer release date was set. I know,because I was one of the first people on the waiting list to get one of these when they came out in the stores. This took almost a year in the planning stages before being approved by the Estes corporation,but only after clearing all the legal procedures of Lucasfilm. The first official release was at the end of July 1978. This is the date stamp that many of the first boxes,and instruction manuals had on them.

There were later releases,but the fuselages had been altered,and other changes to make the model lighter for flight purposes. There were other alterations,and additions to subsequent models,but these were never as accurate,or as desireable as the first releases with the enclosed canopy. The size of the laser canons,and the nosecone design,and the Phantom engines on the later models were slightly smaller to accomodate even weight distribution.

[79 Daytona]

WOW!! This is a great weath of info you guys are giving us so thanks and like i said earlier i got one of the Maxi-Brute X-Wings back in late or early 79 and i thought it had a better look then the old MPC kit so thats why i made it in to a display model .

[PB BB1]

Hey guys, no worries, please discuss on!

Perhaps just one Red 1 afterall... not so sure about this. I have reference of Red Leader that definitely has pyro wings. Considering the advanced construction of the Hero models I highly doubt any of the Hero models got blown to bits. Granted it has been some time but Lorne Peterson says so himself in the Sculpting a Galaxy dvd. He makes a point of telling us that no one came around asking to blow up a hero model as they were never short on things to blow-up.

As for the Maxi Brute... well there's a reason you thought it better than the MPC... it is THE X imo. There is currently no proof at all that it was based on an ILM Hero buck... or anything taken home from that visit. If there is more information here than the mailer linked in my first post, then please I beg you to share it here. The more I look at this thing the more I realize this IS IT. You have to figure the simplifications made were decided on... take away here, add something here. The cockpit's stepped transitions are a great example. BUT the X wing is here in the MB... regardless of its lineage.

Ironic really that a near-perfect studio scale Hero X has been available since 1978! I will be posting the 'wing template' sheet that is included with the rocket. The Sealab parts match the wing box perfectly. I will be posting the template with all Hero wing measurements. Granted, tons of work involved to make it more than a rocket, but certainly the best start you can get on your scratchbuild.

That is, until I offer a fuselage kit. Might want to sell those MBs... gonna be offering my work up to any builders. I will NOT be selling a complete kit and I am already getting a head of myself. This will take time, but I want to help any builders. I can count on one hand how many X scratchbuilds I have seen in the past decade so i'm not sure if there would be any interest anyway.

What I want to know is were the panel lines on the hero bucks done individually?

[JAWS]

I nearly scored an or the XWing 'Buck' when it recently went on auction from Richard Edlunds collection. It had the panel lines scribed into it. It was said to have been used to produce the last 4 XWings used in A New Hope. So from that statement I suspect they were 'Pyros'. Im trying to find the information on that buck.

[PB BB1]

(12-06-2009, 09:29 AM)jasonwright.1972 Wrote: I nearly scored an or the XWing 'Buck' when it recently went on auction from Richard Edlunds collection. It had the panel lines scribed into it. It was said to have been used to produce the last 4 XWings used in A New Hope. So from that statement I suspect they were 'Pyros'. Im trying to find the information on that buck.

Yeah, I read that on another forum not realizing that was you. So who did wind up with it? IIRC another guy on the same forum was going to offer a kit, with a backplate from an original, and then backed out after he snipes that gem from the Edlund collection?

I have the photos of that thing... no doubt that is the Pyro master. Wing mounts are dead on to the photos of the Pyros. That buck used to make it is definitely the same as the Hero versions. You can also see the styrene bottom half, and resin nose. Same parts that were used on the heros.

[JAWS]

That guy was a not so popular person who had studioscalemodeler.com I was the idiot who showed him that 'Butt Plate' that he snatched! Then asked if it was ok... It was probably him who won that 'Buck' too cause I was on friendly terms with him at that time. Damn, more salt in the wound. Of all the people I had to meet first in this scene it was him. Heres an image & a link to the auction

http://www.icollector.com/Final-detailed...e_i8632912

[JAWS]

t the RPF http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=48646 I marked the parts you can have from the incomplete Sea Lab III kit I got. The clear part had pieces attached & is not 100%. If you need it for your build you can have the orange duplicate piece that is in 100% condition. Maybe I could buy some castings of your 'completed parts' & I'll get myself a Maxi Brut I do have all the parts in my complete kit but can only offer castings of those

[PB BB1]

Jason is THE MAN.

Don't sweat it... we'll be building perfect Hero fuselages soon.

Was the butt plate untrimmed? Would like to see how it looks before I begin my pattern.

[JAWS]

Theres a picture of it in the refference section

[427 Cobra]

(12-06-2009, 08:03 AM)PB BB1 Wrote: Hey guys, no worries, please discuss on!

As for the Maxi Brute... well there's a reason you thought it better than the MPC... it is THE X imo. There is currently no proof at all that it was based on an ILM Hero buck... or anything taken home from that visit. If there is more information here than the mailer linked in my first post, then please I beg you to share it here. The more I look at this thing the more I realize this IS IT.

That is, until I offer a fuselage kit. Might want to sell those MBs... gonna be offering my work up to any builders. I will NOT be selling a complete kit and I am already getting a head of myself.

Aren't you putting your foot in your mouth just a little? You basically contradicted yourself in this post. The Estes Corporation wouldn't have a reason to lie about this! Look at ALL the posts here before you post a reply! Look at the comparison shot,and see that this is dead on to the original ILM model. Now there may be a few differences between the original model that was cast for the Maxi-Brute model,and the final version offered to the public. There may,or may not have been some changes made,but since no one has an original ILM model to compare to,everyone is assuming with their ignorant input as to this models' lineage.

What was changed,and to what extent is still largely unknown. The hyperdrive motivator/actuator was obviously different from the original ILM models,but what other changes that aren't obvious so far are being exaggerated. This is a fallacy that is being perpetuated by the members of the RPF who are in search of the perfect X-wing. Most of them only have the Captain Cardboard,or Mike Salzo kit,and not the Maxi-Brute model to compare to. The original ILM buck didn't have scribe lines,and neither did the original Maxi-Brute model! The latter Maxi-Brute version had scribe lines,and no canopy.

At the risk of sounding facecious,before you become offended,or defensive: Estes was there at the ILM shop! Neither you,or I,or any of the members of the RPF were there either when this went down! Most of these poor bastards on these modeling forums believe misinformation some fool told them,or by what they see on their T.V.,or computer screen! A lot of the things they say are purely speculation based on what they see,or what they think they see in a book,or on a forum. It's getting old seeing threads like this one,where there is no concrete evidence,but a lot of armchair experts on this subject that haven't really researched it!


I believe the Estes story,as the former owner of the now defunct studioscalemodeler.com confirmed this himself through the company. I too,would love to see documentation. But there is very little evidence out there,as the company thought that all of this wasn't neccessary to provide to the public to sell a model rocket that looks like a Star Wars X-wing fighter!





Here's the original auction for this X-wing. This is purported to have been Richard Edlunds' at one time. The number of X-wings that were actually made was reported wrong in this description.




This is a closeup of the inner wing detail that has been highlighted,or blocked in blue,so as to not distract you attention from the lines that decorate this styrene insert.




Here's another photo of these being sprayed with silicone mould release. This was an acrylic primer that was painted over with black for a more even coverage under the white. This allowed the modelers to see how thick the white paint is on top of the models in terms of coverage.

[JAWS]

Cris your knowlege is valuable & extensive but please be weary of how you express yourself. This thread & the one at the RPF are to ascertain as much fact & fiction as possible in regards to the 'authenticity' & 'accuracy' of the Maxi Brut Fuselage. It is in everyones best interests that the facts are uncovered to dispell all or much of what you have stated as 'fallacies' & 'misperceptions' or 'conception'. Paul is doing what he can to be as truthful & sharing as anyone could be in regards to all he knows, finds & shares. Just be respectful of these facts when writing as we are all not as smart & knowlegable as yourself & others. You unwittingly put yourself in the category of those you have obvious disdain for by being 'facesiously spoken'. Please.

[427 Cobra]

(12-07-2009, 09:21 AM)jasonwright.1972 Wrote: Cris your knowlege is valuable & extensive but please be weary of how you express yourself. This thread & the one at the RPF are to ascertain as much fact & fiction as possible in regards to the 'authenticity' & 'accuracy' of the Maxi Brut Fuselage. It is in everyones best interests that the facts are uncovered to dispell all or much of what you have stated as 'fallacies' & 'misperceptions' or 'conception'. Paul is doing what he can to be as truthful & sharing as anyone could be in regards to all he knows, finds & shares. Just be respectful of these facts when writing as we are all not as smart & knowlegable as yourself & others. You unwittingly put yourself in the category of those you have obvious disdain for by being 'facesiously spoken'. Please.

Sorry,Jase. You're reading a little too much into what I said. I'm only trying to show with ernest,that you can't believe everything you read on most forums,and that I'm only reinforcing the fact that there are a lot of misconceptions from misinformed people. DON'T BELIEVE IT! unless they can show you with physical documentation that this wasn't made on the same equipment - don't suggest,or listen to anyone who disputes the word of a well known manufacturer,as to the authenticity,or honesty of that companys' claims otherwise!

Most of this is coming from people that are ignorant of the facts,or are jealous of them. I'm sick of all the nit picking about an old model rocket kit - "was it recast from an original? Was it not? Was it scratch made?" Who cares? It doesn't have all the parts,or scribe lines,so it'll never be 100% accurate to please the masses of uber-perfectionist modeling nerds!

At this time all we can do is wonder what actually happened until someone comes along with some kind of documentation to back up their claims. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. Otherwise,we can all speculate until hell freezes over,but it doesn't mean that we'll ever get the answers we're searching for. Trust me - no one on any of these forums wishes to know more than me! I'd love to have the Maxi-Brute model myself,as this is one of the single most important Star Wars models ever made! This is a great piece of seventies nostalgia,and the closest lineage to having an actual ILM X-wing model ever available to the public.

[JAWS]

Thanks Cris. I just need to make sure no one reads the wrong way as I know how passionate you are about this particular vehicle. I believe there are some very interesting prospects in the works Cris regarding this ship & the accuracy of whats available. I haven't been told directly though have picked up on some very assumong comments that we may yet get what we all want. Other than your fantastic 4fter that Paul supplied some photos for quite some months ago. I need to load those into the refference section.

[427 Cobra]

I have all the photos of the four footer that are available to the public. I'll post these if you want me to.

[PB BB1]

Nope. I'm looking at both my feet right now... guess I'm not sure what the controversy is here.

For clarification:

Do I believe the Estes Maxi Brute X was made from an original Hero buck?
Yes

Is there conclusive evidence available to me that I can use to prove that fact?
No

In fact, I have never seen anything from Estes that confirms they used anything from ILM. Not even in the article do they say they took something home. Something you would think they would boast to sell their new product. I have made my own visual comparison and have drawn my own conclusion. No one has been provide solid documentation that it originated from the ILM buck... including yourself, Cobra. I AM trying to debunk any false information here and I think it is unfair to expect me to take your word for it.

I am scratch building an X wing with my primary goal being accuracy of construction methods. I will still be using this fuselage for my build, regardless of its lineage. I think its just right, and the perfect starting point for my X.

Please don't misunderstand, I do appreciate the input. One of the reasons I'm putting this build on multiple forums is so I can glean as much information as possible. I couldn't agree more about stories getting carried over into 'facts.' I have been wanting to build this ship for years now... and only recently has enough solid information been available to match Hero construction.

If you want to see this turn out right... please pick apart my build! Guess I need to get back to the building.

[MonsieurTox]

(11-25-2009, 01:58 AM)427 Cobra Wrote: Yellow canopy - Red 4,red laser canon of the left wing - Red 6 (behind Red 4),and of course,Red leader in its' finished state.

The X-Wing with the yellow canopy in this pic is not Red 4 but Red 12 (just look at the yellow markings of the laser cannons and compare to the pic you posted of Red 12 Red 4 had different markings -2 yellow strips per cannons close to the heatsinks-). Red 12 had a yellow canopy too !

This thread is very promising, I cant wait to see how the MB fuselage will turn once converted !

[427 Cobra]

Red 6 is the only model that has red on its' laser canons,and a green stripe on its' starboard (right side). It's the one that you said is Red twelve in this photo,but Red 12 is the one in this photo placed between Red 6,and Red 4. Here's a few photos to prove it. Red 2 is being held by one of the modelers.





Notice the red laser canon on the top port (left) wing on the model with the GRAY canopy. This is Red 6! Red 12 is between Red 6,and Red 4 in this picture. I'm not simply trying to entertain you,but inform you with photographic evidence,and not long held misconceptions.







Notice that this IS a yellow canopy. This is the model that was purported to have been stolen from the ILM model shop. Also see that the yellow colour of this is washed out from the 100 watt studio lights,which are bright when exposed closely to the subject presented.
This happened to all the models weathering,especially while filming.

Notice the dark coloured detail panels in the wings. The Red 4 has them,but Red 12 in the above photo doesn't have dark gray,but a lighter gray colour despite the lighting,and camera differences!

Compare the model with the yellow canopy in the photo in your post,and compare it to this one,then compare it to the one in the closeup photo above. I know that they both look like the canopy colours are correct,and the same,but only Red 4 has the darker gray panel detailing inside the wings similar to that of the model in the photo in your post.







This is a differently detailed version with Joe Johnston,and Joe Viskocil wiring the detonation cord to another model with the same wing number. Notice that there is no cockpit,or pilot in this model as the one in the photo above has. Please also note that the canopy has changed colour,and also that the Saturn V engine housings are now blue where they weren't before.






This is Red 6. This is the only model to have red on its' laser canons. Please notice how there is no big splotch on the port side of this. Only Red 12 has a gray splotch on the bottom that wraps around to the top its' fuselage - this one doesn't!




Please keep in mind that there are a lot of photos out there on these modeling forums that are backwards. I flipped these to face the right way according to actual film stills. Please feel free to compare.

This is Grant McCune painting Red 6. This is how this photo was supposed to be. The red stripe goes on the left Saturn V engine housing in the back. This underwent a face lift for the canopy,as this was invisible when filmed with the bluescreen. It was then decided to paint it gray over it. This gave it a dirty look.





This is Red 6 after being blown up. Notice the green stripe along the fuselage behind the canopy. Also worthy of noting,is the red along the bottom of its' fuselage mostly obstructed by the lighting.





See the green band behind the canopy,and red stripe,and green patch along the bottom of the fuselage wrapping around the side here? Also note the red laser canon on bottom left wing. This is the only one with these features. Also notice the red stripe,and red pentagon on the bottom of the right wing.



This is Red 6 being puttied inside the wing detail. This is because the wings were hollow - not cast. Please notice the red pentagon,and red stripe on the wing in this photo.






Here you can clearly see the red stripe on the left Saturn V engine housing,the green panel on the right side of the fuselage,the dark gray canopy,and the six wing markings. This is clearly Red 6!






Here without the shadow of a doubt IS Red 12. The splotch on the bottom of the fuselage (near the nosecone) goes around to the top of it as you can see in the second photo from the top in this post. I know you can see a yellow stripe on this ones' laser canons,but Red 2,Red 3 and Red 4 also had yellow rings on their laser canons as well. These were probably painted by the same modeler,and altered later as not to repeat the same pattern on all the X-wings. Your guess there is as good as mine! At least you'll know the differences between these two,and not end up painting your Red 12 model as Red 6!

[MonsieurTox]

Sorry you misread me, I didnt say that Red 6 (on your pic) was Red 12 but that the one you call Red 4 is actually Red 12, Im talking about yellow markings on the cannons (barrels), not red markings.

And thanks for all those great pics but you seem to have only the bottom pic of Red 12, I have the 3 other views of this serie (just like Red 4) of pics and I can assure that's Red 12.

Quote:Notice the red laser canon on the top port (left) wing on the model with the GRAY canopy. This is Red 6! Red 12 is between Red 6,and Red 4 in this picture. I'm not simply trying to entertain you,but inform you with photographic evidence,and not long held misconceptions.

Yes, that was I said, that's this one.

Let me quote myself :

Quote:The X-Wing with the yellow canopy in this pic is not Red 4 but Red 12 (just look at the yellow markings of the laser cannons and compare to the pic you posted of Red 12 Red 4 had different markings -2 yellow strips per cannons close to the heatsinks-).

[427 Cobra]

You don't have to explain. I wasn't looking at those laser barrels when I posted that lastnight! I was tired,and not thinking clearly. That was my mistake! It's obvious. I see that now. It's as clear as a bell. I just wonder why most of these have the yellow stripes on the barrels,but Red 5 has blue candy striped ribbons on its' laser canon barrels. Was this because Red 5 was the hero of the movie,and they wanted to show that? Maybe it's so that it you can tell the difference between it,and the other fighters while on screen. That's what I meant when I was talking about the yellow stripes. Red 6 doesn't have them either. The only other model that has them is the four foot Red 3 model from Return of the Jedi. I wonder what the stripes were originally supposed to suggest,or if they were strictly for a sense of realism.....

[JAWS]

Well one of Geoges strictest rules was that if you put something in or on a model it has to have a relevant menaing to what ever it is. So stripes have to have had some meaning.

[79 Daytona]

WOW!!! Cool pic's thanks for posting them its really great read the history about these models from ILM.

[427 Cobra]

(12-09-2009, 05:31 PM)MonsieurTox Wrote: And thanks for all those great pics but you seem to have only the bottom pic of Red 12, I have the 3 other views of this serie.

This is the only photo I have of Red 12 like this. I too,would like to build Red 6,and Red 12. These are the most obscure of the Rouge group. I only have the photos of these two that are posted here.

[kbilly]

Wow... you guys really know your x-wings. I think I might just wait till someone makes an infographic haha.

Seeing as how I'm a little late to the party, what are the main bones of contention here? You know in 10 words or less.

[427 Cobra]

It all boils down to this - Is the Maxi-Brute really cast from the original ILM buck that the original ILM models of the seveties were also cast from? I beleive the company - others don't for whatever reason.

[PB BB1]

Baby steps...

This one's for you Jase! I have chosen to replicate all of the detail found on the original back panel... you can really get a feel for what was sitting around their workbench. What to do with these Saturn V bell trimmings...


Finally starting the fuselage mods as well. This is going to be tricky... I will next be removing the nose cone to fill with solid resin. This will also spoil my view of the entire fuselage I've been keeping on the bench as inspiration. Oh well... time to get to it... even if it ain't pretty. First, layered some styrene in there to correct the depth of the notch, only to realize it does not go back far enough. Some filler here and there to smooth it out, and marked with pencil what needs to be removed.



I want to believe... that the MB is from ILM parts. But these nose mods make me question the nose itself. It seems just right to me, granted... ever so slightly too fat when compared to photo reference. Still, I am wondering if this did come from an original why bother to modify this detail? Perhaps the original notch created aerodyamic problems.

[427 Cobra]

I believe the Maxi-Brute story no matter what anyone says! Remember,there were a lot of things that had to be added after moulding the fuselage. The scribe lines,and greeblies along the sides of the fuselage were all added later. There were parts that needed to be shaved,and removed as well as modified to add certain details. I won't go to much into this,as I won't derail this thread again. This is why some of the things on the Maxi-Brute model aren't easily explained,but they are in accordance with keeping the original ILM lineage.

What you're doing is no different than what happened at the original ILM modelshop back in '75 - '76. What you're wearing might not be the same,but you definately have that ILM mojo going on. Don't stop what you're doing that way you're doing it! This is the only way to figuring out what skills you have,and to what degree. This is how it usually happens,except when you have a deadline to finish by,you have a lot of heat on you to get it done! On the plus side,you have a bunch of experienced modelers that are professionals to bounch ideas off of.

Back at ILM,there were some models that had problems with slight part warpage,and others that needed to be modified to different degrees to match each other,as no two ILM guys always worked on all the exact same details for every model. The original buck made was destroyed by cracking resin that wasn't properly mixed inside the mould that caused it to expand slightly,so a new mould was made,and the bottom mould was modified slightly to accomodate the new armature motors. There was always something to go wrong,so you have to think on your feet!

Just keep going. If there's any part that you need help on,don't hesitate to ask.

[JAWS]

Looking good Paul. Cris nice feedback. This is going to be a great build & theres plenty of people following it. Keep up the good work.

[79 Daytona]

I agree looking GOOD!!! Can't wait to see more.

[PB BB1]

Hey thanks a lot guys!

Cobra, I think I am flat out misrepresnting myself. I do believe its from an original but I just can't say its a fact, you know. Please don't hesitate to provide us with more information; I know I always like to know more about these parts. I just want to get it to the point where we can say yes, its a fact the MB was from an ILM original (a hero buck, correct?) and here is the proof. Did the former owner of this forum document his confirmation from Estes?

I think you will really enjoy my next update. An all original parts droid strip I thought I was going to finish last night. EXCEPT I'm short a 1/15 stug hinge and its gonna keep this thing out of rubber.

[427 Cobra]

Unfortunately,all the information,photos,and posts were all deleted when this forum changed hands. No Mike didn't document this on the old site. He decided that "he didn't want anything to do with modeling anymore" he sold this site to Jason,and none of the photos could transfer from the old server to the new one. I understand your frustration,but it's obvious to see that there are many parallels between the original ILM models,and the subsequent Maxi-Brute models. I just don't see any merit in making false claims by a company that is licensed to make exact copies available to the general public. It's not like this is a top secret government project they've claimed to have copied! If all your kit parts fit perfectly,then Maxi-Brute must be telling the truth! I don't see why they would lie.

[JAWS]

The only confirmation was his word of a conversation between himself & an Estes employee that worked on the project.

[PB BB1]

Then I'm going to track down the staff mentioned in the article... we'll see what happens.